Thoughts on Novel Workshops and Critiques

[mmerriam]

I’ve been in a bunch of different kinds of critique groups over the last 10 years (10 years!) of working as a writer. I spent several years on The Online Writers Workshop, until I started to feel like I’d gone about as far as I could with OWW and was worried about creeping group-think concerning what a story should and shouldn’t be (fyi, I still highly recommend OWW to pretty much every new writer I meet. OWW made me a competent semi-pro writer very quickly).

Then I was in a couple of different groups that exchanged informal email (international) critiques. I did this for a number of years, until they finally fell apart, like groups sometimes do. I was considering casting about for two or three people I thought I could trust to be first and beta readers, with the agreement that I would offer the same, when I was made an offer by an established local novelist group.

The novelist critique group I joined does “crits-as-they-go.” I admit to being very dubious about this. In the past my groups finished complete first and second drafts and submitted them around to members, and I am having trouble seeing how to give a deep and constructive crit when I can't see the entire form of the novel. I have trouble making deep comments when I don't know the arch of each character, how the plot unwinds, what themes reoccur, and the general tone of the piece.

If the group met to exchange pages weekly, I might feel better, since I could see the shape of the novel as it develops, but instead we have these big quarterly get-togethers, with people submitting no more than 10,000 words. Some members of the group get together once a month (or two) at a library to exchange smaller, less formal crits, usually 5K. The pace seems very slow, especially if -- like me -- your intent is to write at a clip that allows you to finish the first draft of at least two novels a year (I don’t much care for NaNoWriMo, but I do believe in the “Novel in 90” concept).

When I told them at the beginning of my membership that I was use to writing the first two complete drafts of a novel and then submitting it around to the other group members, they were stunned. One member made the comment, “You must be really sure of your novel and confidant in your skills in order to write a whole draft without any input.”

Well, yeah.

My fellow group members say this “crit-as-you-go” style helps them get insights, new ideas, and interesting points of view from a critique. That it enriches their WiP as it progresses, adds extra layers of ideas and complexity, helps them correct mistakes sooner rather than later, and allows them make a novel fuller by improving the plot and story with input from the other members.

It seems to me that all this writing really slowly with constant input is a recipe to become trapped in a cycle of rewriting, editing, rewriting, polishing, changing, rewriting, editing, rewriting and on and on. I also worry that “crit-as-you-go” might have a tendency to kill the author's unique voice -- that bit of the author that tends to come out in the early drafts when the writer is less fettered by worries like editing -- and that the writer will tend toward writing the novel the group thinks he/she is or should be writing, as opposed to the novel they would have written in early draft without constant input. This is one of the reasons I finally left The Online Writers Workshop.

On the flipside, I can see how this process would catch glaring plot holes and continuity problems early, saving the author lots of headache latter, so YMMV.

What are your thoughts on how best to get critiques for the early draft of a novel or novel-in-progress?

Comments

[haddayr.livejournal.com]

I would never crit as I go. I would always write the whole draft first. In my mind, first drafts are not a collaborative process. That said, my more successful friends DO crit-as-they-go, and I have sold a grand total of zero books. :-P

[stillsostrange.livejournal.com]

When I'm starting a new novel I want (by which I mean neurotically demand) feedback on the first few chapters, to make sure I have a solid beginning. After that it's better if I wait till I have a draft before I get critted. I revise and rip out too much as I go for crit-as-you-go to be very effective. A lesson OWW taught me very well.

[mgsmurf.livejournal.com]

The only novel crit group I've been in were a mix between. Most had a completed novel, usually from nanowrimo, and we critter the revised parts in small chapter pieces. Never meet enough to get far with anything though.

I think I'd have the similar problem you do. I have to have the whole roughy draft to have any idea how to fix it. I need the complete big picture. If I had a chance to be in a group that crit while they wrote I'd likely do it for them, and use a completed novel I was revising for me, explaining that's my process.

[kitgordon.livejournal.com]

I'm a reader rather than a writer of novels, though I've written some short fiction in my life. I never showed any of my work to anyone until I thought it was done. I think creative writing workshops and writers critique groups are a 20th century invention, and I'm sure they're wonderful for some people--just not for me.

[pameladean]

There's nothing evil or inherently destructive about "crit as you go" -- the Scribblies did it for years -- but it really does not sound right for you. Or maybe it would be if you found people who write as quickly as you do, but I'm dubious.

In my experience it's awfully hard to find a bunch of like-minded people to critique with, and I feel my successes in this area have had more to do with luck than planning.

I wish you lots of luck.

P.

[kythiaranos.livejournal.com]

I know some people for whom crit-as-you-go is useful. It wouldn't work for me--any time I have to explain what's going on, I lose my rhythm. I'd rather have a rough draft complete so I can see the whole shape of the thing, and then figure out what to do to make it better.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

You know that my process is simply antithetical to crit-as-you-go: a pile of temporally distinct fragments will help no one. So I am definitely not in that camp.

However. The most trouble I've gotten myself into with a book was because it was completely in the echo chamber of my head and none of the details were discussed with anyone, so nobody could tell me that it was not doing a few crucial things until I'd already written about 300K words. So I think that I need some input--just not the "I read this and here's what I think" kind, mostly.

[calendula-witch.livejournal.com]

I've done both, formally and informally, and I've found that crit-as-you-go definitely leads me into a fussy over-revising cycle, as you surmise. Yes, I've learned some very useful things in the early critting, but I'm not sure they were worth the interruption of flow.

Having said that, I think it's valuable to try any and everything you feel like trying, because who knows? Every writer is different, everyone's process is different. You can't know what's going to work for you until you try it.

Thoughts on Novel writing and critiquing

[becca patterson (from livejournal.com)]

I share your skepticism of critiquing as you go. For me, I have to promise myself that no one will see my unedited writing in order to free myself of the debilitating need to be perfect. Also, I would wonder how much of my novel is really mine if other people are commenting on it in process.

That is not to say that I don't turn to my fellow writers when I hit a road block for suggestions.

Also, I need to write my drafts as they come. Usually this means rather rapidly. I would chafe under the conditions you describe.

[cjad.livejournal.com]

I'm more of a write the whole thing first but if ya get stuck at a point, bring that chunk and enough back story for someone else to make sense - kind of guy.

[lerite.livejournal.com]

I find it's absolutely necessary to bounce ideas off someone as I go, since I tend to think crazy things can be made to work. However, I have a lovely goblinfriend who puts up with my ramblings and asks sensible questions and reads pages and thinks everything I do is wonderful, and that is about the level of help I need for a first draft.

At this stage in my life as a writer, I stink at revising. I can see the holes in a manuscript, tear it apart in my head, write an outline that works better and has the right number of characters--but then I have to re-write the whole thing, from the beginning, without copy-pasting anything bigger than a paragraph. Crit-as-I-go from more people helps at that stage, since I need to know whether the characters are working.

The other problem is political sensitivity. I seem to have accidentally written a trans protagonist, for example, who is rather more stereotypical than I thought. In ways around which large sections of my plot hinge. I think perhaps crit-as-I-go would have caught that problem before the bang-head-against-wall stage.

[jongibbs.livejournal.com]

I think it depends on who's doing the critique. I've found some folks have a great eye for spotting problems with story and character arcs, while others prove more useful with dialogue or general prose.

From the sound of it, you could use beta readers, as opposed to a critique group, if that makes sense.

[theperfumer.livejournal.com]

I've been involved in the "complete draft" style and the "crit as you go." I really dislike the crit as you go method - A LOT. The last group I worked with that did this I was involved with three years ago. I met with a friend in the group yesterday who told me everyone was still on the same material that they were working three years ago. Personally, I don't mind reading another person's work and giving notes but I do NOT want to see every. single. draft. I also think that it turns into a mentality where people hold each other back from taking the next step, instead spending forever on polishing the work.

About the Critiquing Thing

[hilarymoonmurph.livejournal.com]

Hey Michael,

I think I might know the critique group that you are discussing here. If we are thinking of the same group, there's been a lot of conversation in that group recently about crit-as-you-go and about "Read the whole draft" in the last few days.

It sounds like the group is reaching a consensus to encourage people to go full speed ahead. Many of us have stated that we don't want to read chapter revisions until the novel is done, but it is still a work in progress kind of group.

We are likely going to be discussing all this at the meeting tomorrow. If there is any time when you would be available to skype in, let me know.

Also, I should say that you are one of my dearest friends and favorite writers. I'm suspecting that the reason you haven't been able to make meetings is partly because the review process in place has not worked for you. I want you to be happy most of all.

If you want to hang on to us as a resource for all-at-once critiques, I and several others would be happy to serve as first readers. If you're still interested in being a part of the group and can make any time tomorrow to chime in on the conversation, let me know. Dinner would be great. I'm making Indian.

And if as an artist and a writer, you need to go elsewhere, we love you and we'll understand.

I hope this helps you with your thinking process.

Hugs,
Hmm